Before we awaken, we perceive the world from mind. So everything in our world is an idea / mental construct. After we wake up, we see through those constructs and what had seemed real no longer does. Hence this discussion.

Its hard to digest not being in the mind. You have tastes of that, then process the experience as thoughts, as you note. Thats when the mind steps in. Thats fine and normal. Satisfying the mind helps get it out of the way.

Because the mind thinks in what it has already processed, it lives in the past, in memory. From memory, it projects forward into future. The deeper irony is that both past and future are simply concepts. Thoughts of now are never actually now. Now is just being in that stillness between thoughts that you mention. Only more so.(laughs) But words are of the mind so to describe anything, we have to use mind.

Until it is your experience, all this is concepts. When it is your experience, it will allow you to make sense of it. You would of course sort it out but its much simpler if we can compare notes when we get there. Like finding something with or without a map.

Being able to express from a feeling level is very good. You can only do that if you are conscious there. That will become more prominent over time until eventually, its more what speaks through you. There is no longer an individual.

The difference between that and what you experience is really very small. Only a lift in the veil of who is experiencing. That changes what is most prominent in attention – mind or silence. And that changes everything, yet changes nothing. (laughs)

Davidya’s last blog post..History

@Barbara I’m really enjoying your comments. You seem to be working with these ideas and seeing if they are true for you. And that is what is important. Ultimately, there is no authority for anything but you. it is your experience that will determine all. Thanks for sharing your experience.

I still receive them as thought, however, or at least that is the way I interpret it. They rise from somewhere and I guess I believe I eventually process them in my mind. And maybe they are just ‘better’ thoughts than others, who knows.

I am a little familar with the religious, spiritual, (use your own label) more readily and widely espoused teachings available today. I could certainly repeat here what I’ve garnered from those collections of ideas in response to what I believe you were trying to demonstrate. An idea of awakening, my eternal being, however you’d like to describe that, but I would be simply repeating what is in those books. And it might make me sound as if I know, but that would be the extent.

For the moment, I think I was expressing what I know at a feeling level, not something I conjured up in my mind, which certainly may be much different than your expression and current experience. It is not that I do not want to know what you may, it is that I do not (yet?), in this present moment.

I do have to tell you I love the irony of the idea called now, since it always seems to be described in terms of the past and future that isn’t. Yet we all seem to experience both, draw for the past, anticipate the inevitable change in the future and generally falter in our ability to express our understanding of the now in any other manner.

“Most people know Descartes’s famous statement “Cogito, ergo sum” (“I think, therefore I am”). But he actually wrote “Dubito…cogito, ergo sum.” “I doubt…I think, therefore I am.”"

More on the post linked below..

Davidya’s last blog post..Blinded by the Light?

Feel free to comment anytime. I enjoy responding to comments as much as I enjoy writing articles.

The more I look at this discussion, the more I see my need or want to be correct. That’s actually funny. Because most of the time when questions are put to me, I do not have such immediate response. I’m most often in the I don’t know category and therefore silent and probably a bit fearful of genuinely not knowing.

I think since these thoughts came to me so immediately (for a change) I trusted they must be accurate. If only for right now I might be right…

Thanks for humoring me!

I guess my bottom line to this whole discussion is that words and thoughts can never be true. They can point us to the truth, but that is beyond all words, thoughts and experiences. It is far, far beyond. And yet, even words and thoughts are contained within it.

All in all, I’m glad you tested it with your own experience. I hope you will test more things, especially the beliefs that we all carry around with us. That’s where the real value in this type of thing lies. Thanks for the comments!

Theres an old Sanskrit saying – Knowledge in books, remains in books. Its also notable that one of the last barriers to waking for many people is their ideas about what waking is. Because ideas are born of the mind, they can never comprehend a change in being, a change beyond mind.

Thus, any thoughts about things beyond mind are always false as even meaning can only vaguely represent them. What a master speaks may be correct, but what you hear and can comprehend is always incorrect until it is an experience you share. How many people can comprehend the rapture, where happiness overshadows any experience? Or total silence of both mind and breath, the body simply vibrating with life? These pale in comparison to complete changes of consciousness.

Both Adya and another teacher I know wrote books, then didn’t publish them as they felt it was too oriented to the time it was written. Then they shifted to writing to the moment, writing as a vehicle to waking. Using ideas to draw you in.

Davidya’s last blog post..The Pout

Therefor Tom. I think that a thought is just that. A thought. It will take time to test out if it is true or not.

Mark’s last blog post..Justa hoping for some good Karma!

I had thought about some of what you’ve reported modern day Adya teaches. And some of the quotation you reprint from great masters. Could I say that on one hand the contemporary knowledge imparted by Adya is untrue? Or that ancient “tried and true” lessons of the master are?

It is more likely that the limiting thoughts I often have filling my mind could be said to be untrue, as I have no proof of my limitation.

But when I think with the masters, or in similar fashion to that of the masters, those who are looked to for their experience of truth or reality, it is more likely what I encounter is true.

So my thoughts can be untrue, are possibly untrue.
Equally, my thoughts can be true, are possibly true. Just not absolute.

I guess you could say I don’t really believe “no thought is true” because, well, if no thought is true, then neither is this one.

So, I think your ideas are quite likely valid. Test them out. See if you can find a true thought, by whatever definition of true you care to use. I know you will discover a lot of peace exists from doing so.

Asking if thoughts are true does prompt us to consider it. And considering what is real helps us to see who is asking. Who is Barbara? Know that and know.

Davidya’s last blog post..The Real Dream

When you first posted this article a couple weeks ago, I read the title and had two immediate answers.

I read on and then began on the comments. You guys have a lot to say!

I’ve been back a few times to read the follow up articles, too. In all that, I still have my two rather simplistic answers to your question, which are similar but not quite the same. I decided to share them.

All thoughts are possibly untrue.

All thoughts can be untrue.

To me, it’s just not so absolute and I’d rather it not be.

One could say that even what is, beyond thought, is not ultimate reality. Its just about the last thing we could call Reality because it is. Before Is, what could we say? Yes, as soon as its a concept it no longer is, the flavour lost.

Enlightenment is like that. Sounds like a great goal. But when you get there, you see its just a concept, so meaningless. Beyond any idea of it.

I don’t find a response troublesome. Only that there is just so many moments for the attention to be on this. I enjoy the question as it may draw out what is not yet known or bring a new variation in shade of meaning. Thank you for that, and the feedback. This is the essence of the play. Expressing the light. When we touch the depths, there is no bottom to the reserves.

Yes, a teacher told me the answer will simply be there now. I would not say thats 100%, but in many areas it is. Not always what I want to hear (laughs). Not sure I know what you mean about spilling over, but I think I get it.

Your last paragraph is quite beautiful. I call that the flow. It moves through us in whatever way is needed. We are the vessel. But it takes some practice to get out of the way (laughs)

Living in the play of the world is quite remarkable indeed! I am in the kindergarten of heaven.

Davidya’s last blog post..In the wings

For you, and please set me straight if I am incorrect, reality is dependent upon the person, i.e., dependent upon perspective, reality can be known, truth is relative, etc.

In Takuin it is used to indicate the world as it is, beyond thought. Or one could also say, beyond the image, beyond the concept, beyond what is already known. Quite simply, what is.

Is that, in itself, a concept? Only if it is believed by the believer. Only if it is solidified into an answer to be shot from the hip each time the appropriate question is asked. In that case, reality is always missed. One can only faintly smell the sweetness of what is, but cannot come close to tasting it.

Very nice reply, by the way, It is always interesting to read and go into these things as they are posed by others.

On the outside, it may seem to be troublesome to answer such questions. Whenever a question is posed, one has to go into it, as if it is an entirely new question (and rightfully, it is). There are no answers here, so when the question appears, one has to take it to the core to find out.

The energy needed for such an undertaking is enormous, but it has a “brightness,” or “luminescent” quality.

You may have noticed this for yourself; someone asks a question, and immediately, through knowledge, the answer is retrieved. For facts, basic information, for knowledge in its right place, that is perfect. But problems arise when knowledge spills over, if that is the right phrase, into areas where it doesn’t belong. Usually because there is a self that is putting it there.

If that particular movement of thought, of self to belief, belief to action, is not there, how is the question approached? It is absolutely beautiful. It is difficult to see if the energy there is a physical, anticipatory movement, or if it is the result of sitting with the question devoid of a self that answers. It hits this organism in different ways at different times, but it seems to be ever available.

Isn’t it lovely to live in this world?

Takuin Minamoto’s last blog post..The Truth in His Face

Davidya’s last blog post..I don’t believe I do

Of course, these are arbitrary values to divide what is undivided, but they help the mind grasp what is. The steps I chose correspond roughly to stages of awakening as described by Adya and others.

If we are standing in the role of individual, there are a series of levels or states of consciousness to be achieved. If we are standing in the role of the one awareness, there are no levels as its all within, there is only consciousness.

While there is some value in speaking from a higher perspective, there is also value in speaking to the listener and showing the steps they can take. This is not unlike how people may go through layers of forgiveness in clearing their heart, only to find there was nothing to forgive. The forgiveness process may have been necessary for them to get to its transcendence. When one arrives, the distinctions loose meaning but to get there, the steps may still be needed.

Truth is dependent, yes, as outlined above. In silence, even truth is meaningless. Many of life’s paradoxes are resolved in transcendence. The free will vs determinism debate is an example. As we step up the ladder, it seems to alternate until they become the same thing – what determines is the will of Self.

Perhaps all this is mental noise for you. The path through the head is not everyones path by any means.

Pay attention? It is not the ‘I’ who writes. I simply observe what flows out. Sometimes it surprises me (laughs)
——–
One knows reality by being it. So yes, reality can be known. Any experience is of the mind. Mind is a more superficial knowing, seen through the lens of the illusion we may carry. It cannot be owned or recited. That is of the mind, the dream. So yes much too limited. The past has no reality. Interestingly its not actually even causal, in spite of appearances.

Yes, the emperor has no clothes. It is all Lela, the play. But there is a purpose for us to be in the play, in the dream. That is why it is. When we know the play for what it is and we know who we are, we can finally play our role and not make a drama on the stage, delaying the show. (hint – its a comedy musical, not a drama)

I think it better to say there are billions, quadrillions, of dreams but one ‘true’ reality. But remember that all of those dreams are within the one reality. Maya is the illusion when the energy is rajas. It is the covering when energy is tamas. But when energy becomes more sattva, Maya becomes the ladder, no longer the illusion.

MY is the ego speaking here, the ego that must be right. But it is never real, though it appears so. As you began, it is not right until we are beyond MY, beyond Thou, and become One. (Yep – Thou means even God experienced is in the play, to be stepped beyond)

In One there is no right or wrong, so there is no conclusion (laughs).

Davidya’s last blog post..I don’t believe I do

Are there levels of consciousness, or just consciousness? If there are different levels, who is it that makes the distinction? And why is the distinction necessary? Does that movement – the idea of higher and lesser levels – unify, or create even more division?

Before deciding it is a level or value of consciousness, one must go into the very core of what is consciousness.

There are far too many questions here, haha.

Is truth dependent upon anything? Is reality dependent upon anything? Pay attention to how you answer the question; how the movement strikes you.

…can a human nervous system/ mind reflect enough of that ultimate reality to know it?

Can reality be known? Known in the sense of owning it, reciting it, living a sense of self based on what has come before. Is reality dependent upon the past? If it is, then reality is far too limiting to be of any consequence. Would one really want reality to reflect their own limited view, their prejudice and suffering? In a perceived reality sure, and if we look into the world, we can easily see that this is happening. But why continue with it? As I have said before, can we not finally admit the emperor has no clothes?

One might say there are billions of realities, projected from billions of beings. I am not saying this is not so, that this movement does not take place, but I question if it is in any way real at all.

If reality is perceived by the perceiver, isn’t it also believed by the believer? Is reality dependent upon any of this? What happens when another challenges my belief in MY reality? How deep will I stab at you to protect MY point of view?

I am not saying this is right or wrong. It is all so interesting, it would be a shame to come to a conclusion.

Takuin Minamoto’s last blog post..The Truth in His Face

I guess I would say reality is dependent on our level or value of consciousness. Truth is then the facts or knowledge we derive from that sense of reality.

As truth is dependent on our perception of reality and reality is dependent on our awareness, both are relative. Tom’s post illustrates this.

I guess it leads to the question- is there an ultimate truth or reality? In some ways yes, but the question then arises – can a human nervous system/ mind reflect enough of that ultimate reality to know it?

I’ve certainly seen Ultimate described a number of ways. A study of “higher states” of consciousness allows us to put some of those descriptions onto tiers or levels relative to each other. But some very evolved teachers I’ve met say it never ends. There is always greater awareness possible. Every time I’ve thought “ah – this is the ultimate”, it has proved not to be.

On the other hand, they have also said that at a certain point, there is no longer “states” of consciousness. One becomes consciousness itself and everything is found to be That. This implies that an ultimate reality/truth could then be known but the values and knowledge of it would continue to grow.

Davidya’s last blog post..Eckhart on Oprah 9

I think Takuin is really onto something about it being about Truth.

Are truth and reality the same? Perhaps not; as truth is also talked about in relation to how we talk about what is. What we say about reality is assessed for its truthfulness. In this sense truth is secondary to reality but more inclusive. This starts to look really tricky.

A simple correspondence theory of truth doesn’t take account of our perceptions. But the notion that truth is subjective, ‘it’s all relative’, doesn’t take account of our ability to communicate. If you come up with a way forward in all this I’d love to see it.

I think I have found the starting point: we are social-individual people not individual-individuals, but I’m not sure what the next step from this is.

Looking forward to your post.

Evan’s last blog post..If You’re a Therapist (or you know someone who is)

So, here’s what I want to do. You guys are firing off “thoughts” (too funny, really), faster than I can respond. I’m going to print out your comments, and do a new post with short little responses to various things you’ve said and new thoughts that have formed in my mind. I’ll post it by Monday evening (USA). Sound good?

I think it is really hilarious that we are discussing thoughts by referring to more thoughts, etc. That crazy God, she’s got one hell of a sense of humor!

Mark Krusen’s last blog post..Not justa nother boring Saturday!