Sex and Spirituality Discussion
Written on July 30, 2009 by Tom Stine
Let’s try something a bit different. I recently read a few things by U. G. Krishnamurti, one of the most intriguing “enlightened” people of the past century. U. G. had a lot to say about a lot of things, but one thing that caught my attention was this:
Sex is only for reproduction, but you have turned that into a pleasure movement. What else is sex for than reproduction?
It is interesting to me the incredibly varied viewpoints on sex that one runs across in spiritual literature. Interestingly, in the original dictation for A Course in Miracles, the author had a very similar comment, namely that sex was intended only for reproduction. It would seem that abstinence is a quite common viewpoint. But then again, we have the Kama Sutra, Tantra, and some pretty wild Taoist practices that would make a pornographer blush!
From a purely human perspective, we can’t seem to get enough of sex, can we? Spend 30 minutes reading a supposedly news oriented website, or 10 minutes watching TV, or 5 minutes at any movie rated PG or above, and you will be left with no doubt whatsoever that sex is a major preoccupation of humanity.
But how does it connect to spirituality? Does it connect? Are there any conclusions to be made, any definitive answers? Or, in the end, is it just more mental noise clogging one’s psyche? Is the true answer to all questions on sex something like this: enjoy it when you are doing it, and enjoy the rest of life when you aren’t.
I’m turning on the comments for this article so we can have a nice discussion. I suspect that sex and spirituality might stir up some fun comments. Enjoy! Namaste.
Note: I think it goes without saying that all inappropriate comments will be immediately deleted.
on July 30th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
Sex involves energy exchange, so it can be used as a pathway to higher spirituality, if one so chooses. This is what the Tantra and Taoism come in. Obviously, there are many roads to enlightenment, and this is just one path.
It is a very easy and approachable path, and I guess this is why many people are attracted to sex. (Just how many times in life do we do it to make babies, you know?)
I also want to point out that many people are starting to realize there are other paths. The bliss we feel in certain “spiritual” experiences, such as in meditation, (I’m putting ” ” for the heck of it) is similar or even better than sex.
Love & Light,
Akemi
on July 31st, 2009 at 12:20 am
In Christianity sex between two married people was to be a spiritual experience joining of two souls/Spirits!
Funny I read the Course of Miracles…the body is nothing…Spirit is everything! I don’t remember it referring to sex as just about reproduction. As it extensively deals with God’s Presence in everything…in every moment. Or if your perceptions/thoughts are that Spirit actually just disapperars within you/God at the moment of “SEX’ because its flesh to flesh? Or if you believe we are made out of light and love in the first place? Are a gift? Are a Spirit? Have experienced Oneness? or not? Are a piece of a greater good/highest good in progress? Believe in sacred beings? Though some are that way of course…maybe? I guess again it’s the inferences you make within it’s highest messages as far as many spiritual paths/Course of Miracles/Gurus. Or that some sages/saints/spiritual people have been married whether they continued sexual relations or did not as a matter of personal spiritual choice. (OFF Topic)Or that one saint gave of meat to stop mystic experiences and others go vegetarian to gain higher spirituality experiences??? Who knows maybe its all unique to each Spirit??? Maybe there are no set in stone rules even with sex as far spiritual growth? Though so many saints do refrain from sex at some point in their lives. Whose to say as a new saint may be being born from one of those/all sexual encounters??? Maybe a lot of saints are waiting because of birth control??? LOL Sure are a lot of possiblities…huh…hmmmm.
on July 31st, 2009 at 1:54 am
Tom likes it hot. (laughs)
I would suggest this is similar to how a given teacher describes awakening. One will talk of stages, another of a single spontaneous stroke of grace. It depends on their own experience and culture. It can also be about the audience they are speaking to.
For some, sex is a distraction. As sensual pleasure, it can be a trap. Akemi mentioned the energy exchange. Indiscriminate sex may lead us into collecting connections that may not be desirable. Energy and emotional connections that will need resolution. It may also hold our energy in our more animal natures.
And of course, there is the long held belief that unless one becomes monk-like, nirvana will remain a dream. From what I’ve seen, this is crap. Monks may be celibate but this has nothing to do with waking.
Plus, sexual energy is prana. Life force. This does not get used up. The issue is the context it’s being used in, not it’s use.
Some people may have a temperament where abstaining may help them detach. Others will have a temperament where abstaining will create considerable internal conflict. It is simply not their nature.
I think it comes down to how the tools are used. How we use our body, heart and mind. Do we focus on things we crave? Or is sex a loving expression? Sex can be an amazing vehicle for drawing 2 into 1, as a uniting force.
We tend to think of vehicles of devotion in the form of God, saints or gurus. But ones mate can easily play the role of goddess/god in the devotional stroke into unity.
Like anything else, it’s personal. How do you feel afterward? Degraded? Satisfied? Uplifted? And does that arise from your relationship to sex, or your relationship to your partner?
A final note – if sex is only for reproduction, why has it been made so pleasurable?
Follow your heart. That will tell you what to do with your body.
on July 31st, 2009 at 4:48 am
Great discussion so far…
If one understands the reasons why we have sex in the first place, setting aside the fact of biological reproduction, then it becomes clear what sex is all about.
If you see how you might have pursued it before and have some insight into the whole thing, then the attachment to it, or the person that ‘needs’ to do it, loses its strength, for lack of a better phrase.
I have always thought it strange when people say sex brings us closer to this or that; the union of soulmates or whatever. These are the same people that still think they need to have sex, so what they say about sex is always – How shall we say? – suspicious.
Unfortunately, Not having sex becomes another idea to pursue for many, so one must be careful in how they approach it. If one stays away from sex hoping to become enlightened, it is still the pursuit of pleasure, and no different from pursuing sex.
So, seeing these things as they are, what happens? It is not as if we are trying to not have sex. It is not that we resist it, or push it under the table, away from prying eyes.
You see it…you have some realization and you see it for what it is. Then what happens?
It is not that we hope to not pursue sex. That is just silly. Having sex certainly could happen, you know. But if the pursuit is gone, or rather the pursuer of sexual pleasure is gone, what happens to sex?
I am certainly not saying anyone else is wrong in their view or in their understanding of sex. But this is similar to recent discussions on my own blog, (about seeing death for what it is). Do we really see sex for what it is? Or does our own intense interest in sex keep us from seeing it clearly?
Great post, Tom. I am very happy we have the comments running, at least for this post.
When Davidya said that, I almost spat tea on my laptop. Haha…
on July 31st, 2009 at 6:01 pm
(laughs) No spitting on Tom’s blog, eh? It’s also hard on ones electronics…
It is interesting to see how so many of the “rules” change/fall away when the pursuer is gone. I’ve seen some loose interest in sex and relationship. I’ve seen others find a new passion arise. A very different motivation for same.
In either case, the relationship with sex changes completely. As it can with so many other areas of life.
I find the second very interesting as it is contrary to what many have taught. Yet it clearly arises for some where devotion does not flow so easily to God or guru but does to a mate. Where sex can be a practice of devotion and expression of love.
But I would fully agree that ‘practicing’ sex to find devotion is incorrect understanding. Perhaps an excuse for pleasure. Love comes first – everything else flowers from that. What arises one will discover. What happens will be unique.
on August 1st, 2009 at 7:42 am
Sex is just sex. If you let the desire for it control you, you’ll be in trouble in a lot of ways, sure.
But as for having it or not having it, what does it matter?
I’m married. I have sex. It hasn’t affected my spiritual journey much one way or the other, as far as I can tell. It has the biological function of stress relief, and it also has the emotional/biological action of binding you to your partner (or it’s supposed to, anyway; works for me).
If I was single, I’d live alone and I probably wouldn’t have sex (at least, not very often). Would I be “more spiritual” or “holier” or something if I didn’t have sex? I find that extremely unlikely.
It’s just sex. It’s not the act, itself, that causes problems. It’s all the attachments people tend to have to and about it.
The same can be said of alcohol, food, playing video games, hanging around on the net, going to the gym, and pretty much any other activity that people might do obsessively or be overly attached to. The problem isn’t the act or the substance.
on August 1st, 2009 at 10:02 am
So far, wonderful comments. I’ve enjoyed reading them. A few thoughts:
@Akemi I find it interesting the idea that sex can be used as a pathway to higher spirituality. For some reason, that idea never made resonated me. I’m not saying it is wrong, but I just couldn’t grok it. But, I absolutely would say that sex has provide a pathway for people to awaken. Not a cause of awakening, but a pathway to awakening. And I definitely agree that there are “experiences” better than sex! A lot of people don’t know what they are missing.
@Diane Thanks for the comment. You won’t find the reference to sex in the published version of A Course in Miracles. Sex is never mentioned in the published version. But in what is called the UrText, or the original dictation that Helen Schucman took down, you will find a long discussion of sex with some interesting interpretations. There is where you find the author (Jesus to Course devotees) saying sex was intended only for reproduction.
Interestingly, a very well known line in ACIM: “All physical impulses are mis-directed miracle impulses” read, in the original dictation: “All sexual impulses are mis-directed miracle impulses.” So, in ACIM, there is a definite theme.
I think I have to agree with you: for the most part, the experiences post awakening are very individual. Sex for some, no sex for others. But for the one who has experienced a true awakening, it really doesn’t matter which way it goes. It only seems to matter to their followers and readers!
@Davidya Yeah, baby! You know, I have a friend that I would see every time I went to a Sedona Method retreat. I went to 6 or 7 of them, and people would bring up every imaginable problem or issue that people can have. And guess what was never mentioned? SEX! My friend and I used to joke that it was the elephant in the room that no one wanted to mention. I mean, we all know that in a room of 150 people, there have to be at least 100 who have issues with sex. Or better yet, 150? It’s a fascinating topic that everyone can relate to!
That said, I would agree with some of what you saying. However, wouldn’t you agree that a lot of what is spoken of with regard to sex and spirituality seems more like conjecture and belief than “known” fact. The bottom line for me is that I simply can’t see how we can know anything for certain about sex. I find that the further this goes, the less I know with certainty, and the less I feel I need to know it.
I think it has to be tested empirically, as you suggested. How do you feel after sex? What arises in you? Inquiry would surely resolve the issue.
One more note: as for sex being pleasurable, eating chocolate ice cream is pleasurable, snorting cocaine is extremely pleasurable, and while I’ve never shot-up heroin, I can only imagine the pleasure associated with it. I don’t think pleasurable is a very good factor in determining the value of a thing. I have nothing against pleasure, but pleasure is just the flip side of the coin that has pain on the other side. You can’t have one without the other.
@Takuin I very much relate to how you see this. It seems to be almost an axiom of awakening: when the doer ceases, a lot of doing ceases with it. I can well imagine that, given how the majority of humans are somewhat addicted to sex, when the self that desires sex ceases, when the self that is addicted to sex ceases, where will be the sex? Without the psychological drive, I can envision a lot less sex going on!
I have to agree with yo that saying “sex brings us closer” is almost surely tied to a belief that one needs sex. What happens when the “need” for sex disappears? Again, if my own experience is any guide, as the psychological underpinnings to anything lessen, so do most of those behaviors.
@Caterpillarwoman Ah, you’ve hit the nail on the head. Sex is just sex. Nothing more, nothing less. It is a biological action between 2 human beings. The fun stuff is the psychological aspect of it. As Takuin pointed out, that drive, that need, that desire, for sex, is the real key. No, correction, the ONE WHO NEEDS sex is the real key. When that is gone, what is left?
Okay, a few more thoughts for everyone:
Sex is without question right up there with drugs and alcohol in the category of corrosive addictions in life. I could make a list a mile long of the problems in our society that can be tied directly to this drive for sex. We have come to think of it as built-in, essential even, mandatory. How can a human being NOT be driven by sex? I believe it is call Freudianism to be exact!
And yet, we have examples like U.G. Krishnamurti. When the “doer” died, so did the desire for sex. Honestly, as much as people have attempted to spiritualize sex, I find that the majority of those who have written on the subject, and who we can say are actually awake, are not making the case for spiritualized sex. The majority seem to have lost all desire for sex, and find that they have little if none of it.
Now, who knows, maybe the ones you are awake as can be and have harems don’t write about it. You never know! There were all kinds of rumors about the Maharishi (most of which were untrue, by the way) and young women.
In the end, the most important thing is the doer, the one who needs the sex to live a happy life. Let that dissolve, and all issues like sex become non-issues. You pretty much find yourself living in this manner (I’m going to phrase this in a Byron Katie way):
When you are having sex, then you know it is what you are supposed to be doing. How do you know? Because you are doing it! And when you are not having sex, then you know it is what you are supposed to be dong? How do you know? Because you are not doing it! The Universe never makes mistakes.
on August 1st, 2009 at 5:47 pm
Takiun, insights is how do we see clearly in anything? I think that is interesting and one I and many others struggle with at different points in life and different inquiries lead us to question?
So many spiritual inderstandings by masters make you/me inquire sustantially different than we may have before. How and what is clearly seeing? Is there a simple answer for those usually speak to me and get me through nonsense and the complicated we tend do do with many things in life. Just the meditation or contemplation on are we seeing clearly? I think I will visit your blog, Taukin.
on August 1st, 2009 at 6:24 pm
Thanks Diane.
One must travel lightly, but also very carefully. If we look from the outside in, we’ll never know what clarity might truly be there.
In the end, it is only for you to say, but it is quite possible that, in the end, you’ll have nothing to say at all.
Thanks again, Diane, and I look forward to seeing you in the future.
on August 3rd, 2009 at 1:14 am
Hi Tom
hmmm – well, you’d know this better. Do people have sexual problems or do people have emotional problems and beliefs that impinge on their sexuality? Are not actual physical issues a minor part of all that?
But you’re right. We’re a bit prudish in the west and in “spiritual” circles, more so – with a few exceptions that didn’t seem all that balanced and imploded.
Yes, I’d agree that much of it is indeed conjecture and belief. How can one know what will fall away and what will remain and what will emerge? Its certainly been a surprise for me! (laughs)
And yes, it shifts from being right, getting it right, or getting anything really into a spontaneous intimacy more profound than any purely physical act could touch. Maybe. (laughs)
But I’d agree. If there is no need for pleasure, stress release, obsession or whatever, the focus shifts. It may end. It may not. It may come and go. Or simply arise. (no innuendos, please
And yes, pleasure is nothing to be sought or that becomes sought. Especially if bliss and love flow without “cause”. Pleasure becomes almost meaningless. Who is being pleased?
I’ve noticed that a number of gurus who were monks have had accusations of sex. It seems to be a very potent way to damage reputations. From what I’ve seen, most were false. What I find more interesting is how people respond to this. People put the teacher on a pedestal then any rumor of imperfection and they feel devastated, not recognizing it was their illusion that was damaged. The person remained a person.
It seems a common journey to grab onto a teaching, become disillusioned or fall away in some way, then find ones own way.
In India, it is a common teaching that one must abstain to achieve samadhi. (The word Brahmachari actually means moderation, not abstinence as is almost always understood) Yet if you read the Vedas, you discover that the the majority of the authors (all fully realized) were householders. And like your comment on ACIM, the original texts had a number of sexual references that translations have typically removed. (aside from stories like Krisna and the Gopis.)
I would also comment that plain old sex only unites superficial energies. It is real love that unites and this can arise in many forms. At some point in a typical evolutionary journey, there is a force that arises to draw together the inner Self and the outer world. The bridge to Unity, the surrender of love – it goes by many names. That attractive force is usually experienced as profound love. Love of teacher or love of God are what have traditionally been seen as the vehicles for such love but it’s become clear to me from discussions with a few others that love of mate can also be a suitable vehicle. Heck, there’s even examples like love of mountain. Whatever resonates. (laughs)
It would not be a surprise for sex to arise in an intimate love of mate. But it would no longer be central when simple touch can bring profound intimacy. When their mere presence can cause a profound surrender of love.
I guess I’d close by saying that sex has become a big deal in our culture. Kind of the non-seekers way to possible pleasure. But when all the drama and needs fall away, sex is just sex, as you said. It may fall away. It may become an expression of love. But our relationship with it will likely change when who we are changes.
on August 3rd, 2009 at 1:17 pm
i was raised in a strict christian setting and even the topic of (picture me now whispering) “sex” was frowned upon. ya just didn’t talk about it! much less DO it. or you are most likely going to hell. LOVELY!
Sex is so natural a thing but seems to be misused or abused for ego-gratification far too often.
for reproduction ONLY doesn’t feel right..
in the atmosphere of a committed, loving relationship feels right..
i ran across this in a Nisargadatta book last week where a questioner asked “What is the place of sex in love?”.. Maharaj answered “Love is a state of being. Sex is energy. Love is wise, sex is blind.”
gosh i really don’t know to be honest!
great topic!
on August 3rd, 2009 at 6:12 pm
@Davidya I think you mis-understood. I wasn’t thinking of physical issues with sex, I was thinking of mental/emotional ones, things like, guilt, shame, anger, sadness, fear…. and a million beliefs to go along with them. THAT’S the elephant in the room, and most everyone has them.
@Lana I love the quote from Nisargadatta! I’ll have to use that one sometime. Perfect. “Love is wise, sex is blind.” I believe it was his way of saying “sex is just sex, like eating is just eating.” Thanks for that. And here in the Bible Belt, I can tell you that good Christians don’t talk about sex, even though they have plenty of it. At least, their 17 year old daughters do (I hope Sarah Palin doesn’t come after me for that comment)…. and sons…. and church secretaries…. and…. well, you get the idea. Maybe if we don’t talk about it, there isn’t really a problem. LOL
on August 4th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
There is nothing wrong with sex at all. Even though I think pleasure is a consequence of it and not just reproduction, it should still be kept a private matter. I know its joked about and talked about with friends, but there is something about it that should be kept more private and almost more sacred then throwing it around.
on August 7th, 2009 at 11:23 am
Interesting post. Sex and spirituality are related because both are intimate satisfaction. Sex is a physical pleasure and spirituality is a mental satisfaction.
on August 14th, 2009 at 6:44 pm
Hi Tom. I’m new. I love this subject! I traveled twice last year to Peru, working with shamans in the Amazon. Prior to going I had devoted a lot of study and practice to Taoist alchemy.
First of all, I think the idea of sex as reproduction needs to be examined in introspection, or psychically. What seems to show up to me is a very powerful biological wonder. In orgasm, you can almost witness spirits and jungle dancing and images on the wall, all clabbered together with the fireworks and toe tingling and eyeball rattling. The physical and psychic and emotional merge in some sort of mysterious pathway, as if the self is traveling in the canal, with a million other swirling dervishes. And why wouldn’t it be all that? DNA is so wonderous, and to be involved with that creation, in a live setting, decorated with pleasure–especially when romantic love is invited in the process–Whew!
Now, I hope some have had a chance to read Gopi Krishna’s accounts of his own Kundalini experience. I say Gopi because he seems to be the foremost voice of authority. Certainly very unlike modern day Yoga Kundalini classes!
So we know all about the coiled energy which rests at the base of the spine. And we know this is sexual energy. We know that the Chinese bedroom arts are related to this same energy, as well as Tantra. Gopi was certain that Kundalini is the evolutionary energy of all creation and also all creativity.
So to say Sex is sex, as some simple thing, seems slightly misleading. But this conversation is excellent. I wish there were more like them.
Funny. When I finally had the dramatic experience one night in the jungle, which I had sought, related to this energy and to hunt it down and talk to it–it was a snake. It scared me at first because all of my Adam and Eve baggage. Later, the persona of the spirit seemed to be an old surf buddy. Naturally my mind had to put a face to it, because when it comes to intellect, your mind only has those assets which have been downloaded to it. But the point is, it was a friendly old acquaintance that pretty much said, “Take it light.”
I don’t treat the subject with as much drama as I did. As the guy with the lantern, always looking for an honest man and genuine experience, I continue to wonder about the mysteries of life.
I would say that no one can tell someone else what sex should be or is for anyone except themselves. For me it is a gift. I think of the sensual pleasure of eating and sleeping as gifts in that way. The one person mentioned the stress relief that comes with sex. I agree with that. I think it is a big reliever, even with much higher doses than laughter. Naturally we can laugh more often, but we could never have the emotional release from a laugh as we could get from an orgasm–it doesn’t seem. Of course, I will say again–these things will differ greatly from one person to the next.
I suppose that all of this must sound by now like the rant of some babbling idiot. Time to sign off. Thanks for the forum!
on August 15th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
@ChiefMyrtleBeach I’m not sure if there is something necessarily private about sex, but I think that I tend to agree. However, I’m fairly certain it is my western conditioning. If we had grown up in Tahiti 150 years ago, our opinions about privacy and sex would be very different!
@Olivia I can’t really agree that spirituality is mental satisfaction. I find that spirituality is more of a mental transcendence than anything. What is awake is far beyond the mind.
@Winston I think I pretty much have to stick to the simplicity of “sex is sex.” Everything else that we can say about it are just ideas we have about it. But it still isn’t sex. Sex is that thing you sometimes find yourself doing with another person (or alone!) that involves certain body parts. But all the ideas, thoughts, etc., that’s just mental noise. Yes, sex is sex, nothing more, but also nothing less.
And, yes, it is quite pleasurable. But so is a really good piece of tiramisu.