however,for those whom the confusion/question(i.e death and life) still arises(if u r a realized person,such Q had vanished,if it still arises,then u r still not enlightened),it can profitably be “said”/”explained” that when the enlightened ones dies,their “holding” to “form”/aggregates been finally realesed(it has been released while still trap in this body actually),so there is no more rebirth(i.e manifestation in whatever form,mental or physical).

One of the things I shake my head at is statues of fat Buddhas. Why? Because it speaks to this exact misunderstanding. People think that if we are not our bodies, then our bodies don’t matter. We can let them go, get fat, whatever. But, anyone who truly gets it will see for themselves that the Buddha was probably not fat at all, but rather quite fit. How can you be alert, aware, awake if your body has gone to hell? How do you feel when you don’t take care of yourself? Not very good. And that affects your mood, your ability to focus, be productive, etc. A fit body goes along with a fit mind and vice versa. They “go together.” And one definitely needs a fit mind to walk this path. Can someone who is paralyzed walk the path? Of course. That’s not the point. The point is the ignorance behind using dualistic thought as an excuse for any kind of sloth, mental or physical.

The point is not that an awakened one will not experience bodily disease or what have you. The point is that an awakened one does not cling to the pain, the disease. It is a matter of (non) attachment.

People tend to take this stuff too far into metaphysics. But, the Buddha himself never talked about his path as one of metaphysics. It was all about the end of suffering. Awakening from the illusions of our conditioned existences. Getting too technical can create more roadblocks. Remember the point of “Right Focus.”

Be mindful of the trappings of duality and dualistic thought.

When you die, the body falls away but the ‘you’ continues, probably more than you actually want. (laughs) Oneness elicits the same fear for the same reasons. But nothing is lost, everything is gained. Oneness is not the same as one individual, it is inclusive of everything. So the person of Tom is there, but now in the wholeness, an aspect of a much greater being. What you loose in awakening is only the illusion of being separate. What you gain is everything you ever felt was missing. And more.

I would not say never know. Never say never. I would say we can know but because it is not now, it is always different from what we thought. Remember that the past and the future are only now. When time fully collapses into the present (as it already is), all time, then all persons are in the moment. So all of it is available now. But then we know it as a false causality, so the only value is amusement. The play goes on.

If your expectation of post-death is heaven and St. Peter, you may just get that. It’s just a dream. But it’s not just your dream, so the form may vary. The film What Dreams May Come explores this beautifully. When the protagonist dies, he enters a world of his wife’s paintings. Gradually, he opens up and eventually is able to join the group dream. With adventures and rescue along the way

The typical 4th stage could be called the Seeker or Transcendent step. Because we are so long invested in the ego, the blossoming of a deeper sense of being and experience of transcendent reality is often set in contrast to the ego’s attempt to stay the course. The result is a period of paradox, with the ego judging laid on to the inner moments of peace. The lesson of this period is to be with what is. To simply allow. To stop holding.

As one awakens and enters the 5th stage, some of the same conflict can arise as the ego may try falsely to reassert itself. The battle is now lost, but if we give it attention, the remains can hang around for a bit. More allowing is the key.

A concurrent process generally associated with the 6th stage is the opening of the heart. This is where the Love you mention arises. Before we can truly Love, we have to learn allowing. When we can be OK with what is, then the perfection of it begins to dawn and we can learn to Love it as it is.

That Love is the bridge to Unity or Oneness. As may be obvious by now, this idea of stages is a framework to understand the context of experience and the most useful approach. But it’s not all tidy or orderly for any given person. For example, some don’t see a true heart opening until close to Unity. Some see it, and feel it, before they awaken. Its a process that expresses itself the best way it can given the person and the circumstance of the whole. We all tread the same path but experience it uniquely. And really, that’s the point of the exercise.

@Stephen You are right! I guess I could “return” and give a lecture. But who would believe me? If I could get on Oprah…..

@Davidya It probably is the case that whether awake or not there are further experiences in store when this body is dead. I agree, the dream changes. But we can never know. Maybe nothing happens. Maybe something. Is it just me, or do you, too, doubt it will be “Heaven” with St Peter and God on his throne?

@Mike Awake ones dying of disease… A great question. Davidya answered it perfectly. If you don’t care about your body any more, if you see it simply as a vehicle to get around the world, then letting it die of cancer isn’t a big deal. If your 15 y.o. Chevy starts burning oil, you don’t “heal” it. You junk it. It’s a beat up Chevy, for crying out loud! At one point my body may have been BMWish, but I suspect when I’m like my 93 y.o. grandmother, it will be more like a junker Chevy.

@Andrea Thanks! I think it will be an incredible experience, too. I can actually see myself welcoming it, curious to know what comes next. Cool, huh?

@Mike I get your new point. There is a subtle mistake that so many people make on the journey: they seek to TRANSCEND the body. But you see it truly: you instead love it for what it is. You drop your identity out of it, but you still find yourself experiencing the world through it. All that is lost is identity, nothing more. And that is more than enough! It is everything!

Certainly true that there is no need to realize our separation as body and mind, since “that’s part of normal human development.” Yet, then we get to a point in that “development” where we choose a path to ‘enlightenment’ which results in our living in judgment of the body-mind organism. As we press down into it, so as to transcend out of it, this tends to judge it as unworthy. The paradox: To be more than you ARE, all of what you ARE needs to be accounted for and LOVED.

Great Discussion!

Thanks,
mike S

You’re probably right we’d not be thinking about the same things in the afterlife (I’m laughing too).

Such a fascinating subject.

Blessings,
Andrea

What awakens is the awareness within. The body is still the body and still has it’s issues. That does not change, although as we stop resisting, we do stop producing more trash to deal with later. The “person” that expresses through the body also does not depart, although it often changes somewhat.

People lay all kinds of ideas on “enlightenment”, expecting an awake person to be perfect and live forever. In a way that’s true, but it’s not the body that is perfect or lives forever, it is awareness that reaches that.

Death and disease are the nature of the body. But if you are no longer the body, is that such a big deal? It simply is what it is.

You have to remind yourself here that although we may debate certain points, awakening is not a point of debate as it is a reality for many, not a concept. What form it takes is the surprise.

I love the neo-advaitist platitudes, “if your are not a body…what dies?” as the exalted one scratches his butt I just want to shout, “if you’re not a body then why ya scratchin your arse so hard!” (just a little levity folks, just ignore the unenlightened guy in the corner)

So if awakening is such a big deal, why are so many awakened ones dying from disease like the rest of us? If awakening is transcending the body, why is the exalted one riddled with cancer and the attached pain? Seems like the body won that bet! (but I thought he said that he was not a body, so does that mean the body has taken on a life of its own and has thus transcended the mind?)

I seem to feel we need a complete ‘belief system’ overhaul with regard to this ‘awakening’ stuff and all the lineage and textual teachings we have followed through the centuries. What if the point is to realize that you are a body and a mind and all your thoughts and, yes, even your ego!? And the fact that we keep trying NOT to Be what we are, keeps us from Being what we’re supposed to Be, which of course is what we are.

Not that I don’t believe that we can Be more than we think we are, yet by asserting that we are ‘less than,’ requiring we seek ‘more than,’ we may persist in what we thought we were in the first place.

Ha! I love this sheit!

Thanks for provoking my unawakened mind!

mike S

Will you still be thinking? As long as you are in form. Form is structured in thought so if you have a form (subtle or otherwise), you’ll be thinking. But not likely about the same things (laughs)

In the traditions of India, there is a big difference between death of the awake and the not yet awake. As Kirsten mentions similarly in Tibet, the awake person is said to enter MahaSamadhi. Essentially like a very deep meditation. I know one person who has done this and he had very powerful darshan after death.

The unawake are still trapped in their stories, so they drop the body but retain the ego sense and are obliged to continue through further experiences.

It is further said that once you awake, if you have not achieved full enlightenment/Unity, you will do so at death. And that’s where we get into the variations. There are the awake who stick around or return, the ones who take on “senior” roles, and so forth. That brings us back to your point – you don’t know until it’s now.

There is a further point it’s worthwhile making. When you “pass on” you in effect change dreams. You shift from the dream of the world to the dream of the afterlife. What that is for you varies by person and ‘soul group’. This is why near death experiences have commonality but the scenery can be quite different.

Looking forward to hearing what you have to say about past lives.

From time to time I find myself wondering what happens to my mind when I am called home. It’s a fascinating subject b/c like you said, no one has the answer to this mysterious question. I try to imagine what I’d be thinking of feeling after the body dies. Will I still be a “thinking” being or will it be different?

Will I communicate the way I do now or will that also be different?

See? I’m fascinated with this. Hmmmm……. What a huge mystery! Wonder what Randy Pausch is doing now that he’s died?

@Kirsten I love your comment. No getting around it, we just can’t know. But I still love all the theories. The Western scientific view is, though, kinda boring. Sure, there may absolutely NOTHING, but that’s no fun.

In the West, we take a rationalistic stance that nothing happens, consciousness ends with life. Yet in Tibetan Buddhism, there is the manual that guides a soul through the bardo, and if the soul doesn’t see the Clear Light for what it is, then it heads back to incarnated life. Two very different theories.

Death is the ultimate mystery, and acknowledgment of our mortality can bring new energy and meaning to life.

Speaking of my ego, I don’t think there’s another blog where I would make such a weird comment. Thanks for creating a safe space for deep thoughts, Tom.